‘King of Comedy’ Star Sandra Bernhard Solutions Our Questions

Sandra Bernhard wastes no time in The King of Comedy. She arrives three minutes into the film, screaming and thrashing within the again seat of a limousine, and maintains the identical delirium all through Martin Scorsese’s uncanny cult classic. Bernhard was 26 when she shot it, having appeared in just one prior film: Cheech & Chong’s Good Goals. Right here, she performs Masha, a rich misfit who joins wishful stand-up comedian Rupert Pupkin (Robert De Niro) in his maniacal obsession with late-night TV funnyman Jerry Langford (Jerry Lewis), submitting a few of the most electrical work of her profession.

Again in 1983, nevertheless, few took discover. The King of Comedy was a infamous flop, stalling at $2.5 million in home grosses. It has since turn out to be a favourite amongst Scorsese admirers for its satirical depiction of superstar infatuation that feels nearly painfully forward of its time. Rupert, like seemingly everybody with an web connection within the 12 months 2022, desperately desires his quarter-hour even when individuals will name him loopy when it’s over. Equally, Masha calls for from Jerry the eye she isn’t receiving from the world round her. Neither of them appears to have a job, which leaves ample time to stalk Jerry till they’re satiated. “I all the time say it was prescient, and everybody thinks I’m saying treasured,” Bernhard mentioned throughout a latest telephone dialog. “I don’t suppose individuals know what that phrase means.”

This was solely your second movie. What did it imply to you on the time to e book the function?
It was a really coveted function. Everybody I knew had been up for it. They have been taking a look at loads of comedian actresses, and a pal of mine, Lucy Webb, who was a part of a comedy staff, had gone in and skim for it. She mentioned, “Sandra, you’re so proper for this function.” My agent on the time stored saying he acquired me up for it however by no means acquired me up for it, so Lucy Webb known as Cis Corman on my behalf, which was very cool. Then I arrange my very own audition. I went in and met Cis Corman, who was very nice. I did a few of the script after which I improvised. She checked out me and mentioned, “I feel you could meet with Marty.” So the subsequent day, I went again and met with Marty. I feel I learn with Bobby, they usually got here to see me a pair nights later on the Comedy Retailer. They appeared to be actually excited. Then I didn’t hear again from them for a month, and all of a sudden I acquired all these messages on my telephone machine saying they wished to fly me to New York to do my closing audition with Jerry Lewis. So I flew in and had my loopy assembly with Jerry. He’s not straightforward however fascinating. The following day, Cis Corman known as me in my resort room and mentioned I’d gotten the function. I used to be over the moon.

You said when the film got here out that you just felt you wrote about 50 % of the half your self. Did you imply that actually, or was that simply because it was so improvisational?
Oh, simply improv. They didn’t ask me to write down something, however the whole dinner scene the place Masha and Rupert kidnap Jerry and produce him to her condo — I imply, it had an overview, however all that stuff the place I used to be simply doing a monologue to Jerry, who was taped up, was stuff from my act and stuff within the second.

Inform me about your act at the moment. What in it confirmed to Scorsese that you just have been proper for the function?
I used to be very younger, and I used to be stuffed with plenty of power and opinions — not that I’m not now, that’s by no means stopped. At the moment, 1980 or ’81, I used to be a younger lady onstage within the comedy world, which was primarily male dominated, and I used to be anti-self-deprecation. My entire factor was “I’m not going to be another lady who places herself down. Why would I put myself down once I simply got here out of the entire feminist motion?” I didn’t care what individuals suppose or what they need to see a lady appear to be; I’m groovy and funky and I’ve my very own enchantment. In order that was the place I used to be coming from. It was loads of confidence and loads of breaking all the foundations of what girls have been presupposed to really feel like and be at the moment.

That’s an attention-grabbing thread to consider when it comes to Masha. Did you method her as an excessive model of what you’re saying, somebody who takes {that a} bit too far?
Yeah, I noticed Masha as being any individual who could be very, very assured and didn’t care what anyone considered her, however she’s additionally very entitled and spoiled and slightly delusional and demanding. I imbued her with all these character traits, and I introduced loads of my very own feelings at the moment into her as effectively. When Masha was with Rupert, she was bratty as a result of he got here from a decrease class and he or she kind of regarded down on him, however he was her conduit to Jerry — so the entire thing was actually wacky and humorous and fully offbeat.

Earlier than Scorsese was concerned, Bob Fosse had thought-about directing it. In accordance with the web, he first urged you for the function. Does that ring a bell?
No, it doesn’t, however out of all the administrators apart from Marty and John Cassavetes, Bob Fosse was the one individual I actually wished to work with and by no means acquired to. I acquired to satisfy with John Cassavetes — there was simply by no means a task that was proper. Marty by no means talked about something about that, and I’d by no means heard that earlier than, however how fascinating. I by no means met Bob Fosse.

It may very well be a type of web issues the place the main points acquired muddled collectively, however that’s on the market on the earth as some kind of rumor.
Wow! I really like that. That’s a brand new twist I’ve by no means heard, in order that’s enjoyable.

Nicely, you’ll be able to simply assume it’s true, then: Bob Fosse beneficial you to Martin Scorsese, and that’s how this entire factor started.
Possibly sooner or later, that was a part of it, however I for positive auditioned thrice. It was actually final minute. I feel they have been right down to me and one different actress, and I actually don’t know who that different actress is, to be trustworthy with you. However they noticed 500 actresses for it — Meryl Streep and Debra Winger. Everyone wished it as a result of it was such an uncommon function. You simply didn’t see roles like that for ladies again then. It had extra of an indie-film vibe to it in a sure manner. You couldn’t establish it that manner on the time, but it surely was simply tailored for me, I feel. It’s apparent nobody else may have performed it.

To know Rupert, De Niro has mentioned he would chase down followers and ask questions on why they have been so concerned about him and why they have been stalking him. Did you do something like that?
No. I’m so not a Technique actress. There’s a lot for me to attract on continually from my very own life. I’m a eager observer of individuals, so I suppose that could be a methodology, however I don’t put it in that class. I’m very a lot within the second. I’m out on the earth. Once I hold up, I’m going to Complete Meals to buy groceries. I am going to the put up workplace; I am going to the financial institution to deposit checks. And I’ve all the time been that individual. When I’ve a automotive, I pump my very own gasoline. I’ve by no means had a full-time assistant. I wish to be in it.

One in all your co-stars was doing this transformative Technique stuff, and the opposite was this famously tough persona. Was it an intense shoot for you?
No, by no means. I couldn’t have had extra enjoyable. Marty was great, and I feel he was tickled by me. I used to be a type of individual he’d by no means labored with earlier than, and the script was so totally different from his gangster movies. It was a breath of recent air for him. Each time issues acquired slightly loopy with Jerry, he stepped in. It was by no means something that was going to place me over the sting or set off me. Individuals didn’t get triggered again then — you simply labored by means of it. As irritating and as annoying and as insulting as Jerry Lewis may very well be, I nonetheless beloved working with him. I didn’t care. It’s Jerry Lewis! He’s a legend and an icon and a freak, and I really like him.

The outstanding kidnapping scene in Masha’s condo — you improvised loads of that with Lewis, one of many all-time masters of improv. Had you labored out what the scene can be earlier than the cameras have been rolling, or have been you continue to improvising at that time?
Marty would go inform Jerry sure issues so he’d be ready and open to reacting in a sure manner. I feel his discomfort and his squirming was not solely the Jerry Langford character — I feel it was the Jerry Lewis of all of it. He had by no means been subjected to a lady controlling him and telling him what to do. I feel it was metaphorical and visceral, and every little thing that was taking place was a confluence of Jerry’s life and the character. That basically wasn’t rehearsed. I simply did my factor. Marty would giggle, and Jerry would squirm. We did it a number of occasions, and it was simply loopy and enjoyable and glamorous and wonderful. There wasn’t one second engaged on that movie the place I assumed, That is an excessive amount of for me. In each manner, form, and kind, I felt fully at house, fully comfy with all these individuals, and in my milieu.

Masha’s condo is so great with all these candelabras and that dim inside. 
That was a brownstone within the 70s on the East Aspect. I want I remembered precisely the place it was, however that home was wonderful. I don’t know the way they acquired it.

How lengthy was Jerry taped to a chair?
He was in all of it day, however they discovered a solution to put it on like a forged with tape round it so he may rise up and transfer and go to the toilet and have a break. The shaggy dog story is, when he hits me, initially he wished me to do a stunt the place I spin round in these excessive heels and fall into the glass desk. I used to be like, “No, I can not try this.” He stored attempting to persuade me and present me how. That was the one time I turned to Marty and mentioned, “Marty, you’ve gotta step in right here. I’m not going to danger my life and well being for that.” So ultimately it was simply me up in opposition to a wall and I simply fell right into a pad. I used to be in my bra and panties in excessive heels. I used to be very skinny, and I don’t do stunt comedy. He was on Percodan half his life as a result of he cracked his again from doing stunts. I used to be like, “You are able to do all you need, that’s not going to be me.” However that was the one humorous, bizarre second the place it was like, “Marty, assist!”

And Marty’s response was “We’re not going to do this”?
Yeah, he ultimately mentioned, “Don’t fear, don’t fear.” I feel he type of appreciated the concept. He would let Jerry quote-unquote direct slightly bit to appease him. However that was the place I drew the road. Marty knew that was asking manner an excessive amount of of me.

Was the track you sing in that scene, “Come Rain or Come Shine,” within the script?
Sure.

What’s the story behind the handwritten apology be aware you bought from Jerry?
Jerry had come to the set in the future and was making enjoyable of my lips. He mentioned I had fish lips. Principally, he was saying I used to be unattractive. I mentioned to Marty, “That’s fucked up.” So I feel Marty went to Jerry and mentioned, “Possibly it’s best to apologize.” He left me a handwritten apology on a yellow legal-pad be aware. It principally mentioned, “You’re an exquisite actress, you’re humorous,” no matter. Sadly, I don’t bear in mind the place I put it. Possibly sometime I’ll come throughout it in some field someplace, however I put a joke in my act: Jerry gave me an apology after which got here again later and stole it as a result of he’d by no means need anybody to suppose he’d ever apologize for something in his life. It was actually cool that he wrote it. The entire thing is simply humorous and bizarre.

And the blokes who yell at Masha in the street are from the Conflict. Have you learnt how that got here to be?
Marty was a fan, and I don’t know if he tracked them down or reached out to them. I suppose they have been simply round, they usually have been invited to do the scene. It was in entrance of Colony Information, which was so wonderful. They have been taunting me: “Avenue trash!” That was a extremely enjoyable day of capturing. It was a superhot summer season day. We did it time and again. You couldn’t discover that authenticity now for love or cash.

Did you social gathering with the Conflict after the shoot?
I don’t suppose so. They went their very own manner, and I went again and crashed. It was a sizzling, sizzling day.

I used to be additionally fascinated to be taught that Liza Minnelli shot a scene with De Niro that didn’t make the ultimate minimize. It looks like an enormous oversight to have Liza footage that you just don’t embrace within the film, however extra broadly, I do know the 2 of you’re pleasant. Is that the place you first met?
I really met her at a screening of New York, New York. We hit it off instantly and linked. To me, she’s a type of brilliant stars within the sky. You suppose, I’ll by no means get to see that star with out the help of a telescope, however once I acquired to satisfy her and turn out to be buddies together with her — I imply, to this present day, I’ll pinch myself. She’s Liza Minnelli! She’s simply one of the gifted individuals on the planet.

Sadly, The King of Comedy wasn’t an enormous hit when it got here out. It has turn out to be revered for quite a lot of causes, and folks ceaselessly say it’s best to have been nominated for an Oscar — possibly even gained the Oscar. Was there speak on the time of performing some type of marketing campaign? Campaigns didn’t look as dramatic then as they do now.
No. You recognize what? They simply didn’t try this. I gained a Nationwide Society of Movie Critics Greatest Supporting Actress award, and that’s often the precursor to getting nominated, so I simply thought I’d be nominated. However I didn’t have a publicist per se, and also you weren’t plugged into it in that manner on the time. Once more, it was a extra genuine time.

It ought to have come out so much sooner. It was shot in ’81 and didn’t come out till ’83. It simply took eternally to complete it, and that put a little bit of a damper on it as a result of I feel twentieth Century Fox was bored with pouring cash into the enhancing. Had it come out in ’82, I feel it will have had a special response. The studio wasn’t behind it. That was the issue.

You make a film with Scorsese and De Niro. After that have, did you actively pursue a profession in motion pictures, or have been you targeted on stage work?
No, I positively wished to do motion pictures. I segued into one other film that was presupposed to be a satire concerning the advert enterprise known as Beer. Somebody who had been within the promoting world wrote it and was directing it, and I used to be starring in it. Then we acquired midway by means of capturing, and it fell aside. I acquired changed by Loretta Swit. However then it by no means got here out anyway. The script was horrible. The director had directed commercials, however he’d by no means directed a function movie. As a matter of truth, Rip Torn was in it. He was sporting jumpsuits tucked into boots, and in his boots he had airplane-size bottles of vodka that he’d sip all day lengthy. However we hit it off. I beloved working with him. Everyone else in it was simply so mediocre, and I’d had the heights of working with the very best individuals on the earth, then working with whole schleppers besides Rip Torn. Now I see why movies don’t work. In case you don’t have that caliber of expertise, there’s no manner you’ll be able to pull it off.

However sure, I used to be positively pursuing movies and tv. There weren’t sufficient of these sorts of attention-grabbing roles for somebody like me again then. Take a look at the movies that acquired made. Ladies that have been forged needed to be attractive or docile. That’s why King of Comedy was such an anomaly. You’d by no means seen a task like that for a lady, principally. Possibly again within the ’20s and ’30s with Carole Lombard or Katharine Hepburn.

Or in Cassavetes motion pictures, like Gena Rowlands’s roles. 
Precisely. However he had Gena Rowlands, so he wasn’t going to forged me in a task like Gena Rowlands. Now, between tv and movie, there are countless roles I can step into and do my factor. However there was that bizarre lag time after King of Comedy and earlier than I did Roseanne the place there wasn’t actually loads of stuff that was a showcase for my expertise.

Is it true you have been provided Annie Potts’s function in Ghostbusters?
Yeah. I stupidly didn’t try this. I simply didn’t suppose the function was large enough. It was silly. My supervisor on the time didn’t have the chops to information me and provides me good recommendation. It wasn’t like that was the function you discuss if you discuss Ghostbusters. I do remorse not having performed that function.

Did you see Joker, and what do you consider the overlap between it and The King of Comedy?
Thematically it was the identical, however I didn’t really feel it was that a lot of an overlap. It was a lot extra violent and loopy. I don’t actually really feel it was the identical in any respect. It was rather more tragic and darkish. King of Comedy was darkish, but it surely was a satire.

Is there a defining King of Comedy reminiscence we haven’t already talked about?
I began capturing my scenes on the night time of my twenty sixth birthday. What I beloved about King of Comedy is that it was shot so as. It was my very first scene, the place I leap into the limo and I’m screaming and my arms are there, and the credit roll over my arms on the limousine window. Cis Corman introduced me these little white boxer shorts with a French-cuff shirt to congratulate me on getting the film. That was so glamorous to me. I used to be so, so skinny again then, and I wore that little outfit very proudly.

Masha does have humorous type, particularly as soon as we understand how rich she is. 
I used to be presupposed to nonetheless be in non-public college. It was sick outlined — she lives on this unbelievable condo, however you by no means noticed her dad and mom.

We by no means be taught precisely why she’s so rich.
No, it’s simply because her dad and mom are. You don’t have any concept, which I really love. Why hassle? She’s only a loopy, wealthy New York nut.

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Cis Corman was a well known casting director who labored with Scorsese, Barbra Streisand, and Sergio Leone. Also referred to as Robert De Niro. From a 1983 profile of Scorsese in The Village Voice: “Associates assert that it’s painful for the director to audition performers, but Scorsese estimates that some 500 actresses learn for the half earlier than Bernhardt [sic], a 27-year-old Los Angeles–primarily based stand-up comedienne with restricted display expertise and an act Scorsese describes as primarily based on ‘sexual menace,’ acquired the function.” “In 1965, they gave me one Percodan that took me by means of the day,” Lewis mentioned in 2005. “And by ’78, I used to be taking 13 a day, 15 a day. The dependancy is devastating since you’re not even clear anymore why you’re taking it.” Colony Information was a well-liked music retailer on the nook of forty ninth Avenue and Broadway. It closed in 2012 after 64 years in enterprise. The large-screen musical Scorsese directed in 1977 starring Minnelli and De Niro.